Frequently Asked Questions
The Click That Teaches: Riding with the Clicker Discussion List.
"The Why Would You Leave Me?" Game
This refers to an exercise described in Chapter 25: The "Why Would You Leave Me? Game: Developing Softness and Balance
This is a key lesson for transitioning from ground work to riding.
Note: the_click_that_teaches email discussion group is a yahoogroups list which was formed January 15, 2006. The list functions as a study group for people using the new riding book. When you purchase the riding book through this web site, you will receive an email inviting you to join the list. If you have purchased the book through some other source, drop me an email at kurlanda@crisny.org, and I will send you an invitation to join the list.
If your interest in clicker training is more general, I would encourage you to join the clickryder list.
I realize not all everyone has time to keep up with yet another email list, so I will be posting "keeper" posts from the list. They will be organized by topic, so as you are working through the book, you will easily be able to find the relevant discussions.
Note, these discussions are based on material from the book. We will be using shorthand abbreviations and referring to lessons in the book without first describing them. If you are not familiar with the material, some of this may seem a bit mysterious. Please read these posts with the understanding that they are not intended as the primary teaching resource for these lessons. For that I would refer you to the riding book.
Alexandra Kurland
January 2006
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"The Why Would You Leave Me?" Game
Katie Bartlett got the list off with a series of great posts. To learn more about Katie and her horses visit her web site at: www.equineclickertraining.com
You can also see her thoroughbred, Willy, teaching the bow in the "Step-By-Step" book.
Ok.I love 'Why would you leave me" WWYLM. I’ve played with it a lot with Rosie and found it has great benefits.
The first thing I would like to say about this exercise and lots of Alex’s exercises is that they are very flexible so you could do WWYLM with 10 different horses and trainers and you could make it the same for every horse, but you might find that the different combinations benefited from having it “tweaked” in certain ways. So, I am not going to give you a one size fits all answer. WWYLM that works for Skylark now might need to be modified in 6 months.
When I have seen Alex teach it to a new student, she generally starts with a generous circle (somewhere between 15 and 20 meters). I think there is actually an optimum size and it depends upon your goal and your horse’s level of self carriage. Have you ever read the book called “Right From the Start” by Mike Schaffer? Well, Mike talks about this circle that he calls “the Natural Circle.” It is the circle whose diameter is such that the horse has to step under himself a little with his inside hind to stay on the circle. If the circle is too big, the horse can stay straight and avoid flexing his joints. If the circle is too small, the horse tends to sort of spin out with his hind end. I have never measured this, but I would suspect that the size Alex picks is pretty close to the size at which the horse walking with nice flexion and bend will end up in a little bit of shoulder-in just as a function of the circle size when you do this exercise.
So, I would say start with a circle that feels like you have to step under a tiny bit to stay on the circle. If it is too large, you will feel like you are walking straight part of the time. If it is too small, you will feel like your horse can’t keep up. As your horse gets more advanced, you can make the circle smaller, but I’m not sure there is any huge benefit to doing this on too small a circle as you would lose the flow of the exercise.
If you don’t have markers, then I would just suggest that you pick visual markers at points on the circle and use them to guide you. I think that once you get the feeling of the circle in your body with the markers, you will find that you are better at walking a circle with Skylark than you thought. This might be a good exercise to do without Skylark. Just go out and walk a nice circle and see what it feels like in your body. If all else fails, then make yourself a pattern…2 steps straight, slight turn, 2 steps straight, slight turn…
The size of the circle will determine his bend, but you can also adjust that depending upon the situation. If you are in a situation where the horse really wants to be distracted and leave you, then you might ask for more hip and have him curved around you more. This will help glue him to you and give you more time to “catch” him when he starts to drift off. I would suggest that you watch that outside shoulder and make sure that when you get more hip, he is not leaving with his outside shoulder.
Ok. You have your circle and you are ready to start. Ask him to walk forward, slide down the inside rein and ask for a give. When he gives, release. He should stay there. If he drifts out with his head or body, you slide down the rein and ask again. You do not hold him there with the rein, you release and hold him there with your body posture and direction (Alex sometimes has us imagine holding an invisible lead). If you release and he stays there for any teeny bit of time, you click and reward.
You asked if his hind legs would be outside the circle. Ideally the inside hind will be stepping up and under to arc him up around you to stay on the circle. In the beginning, you will see him working with his hind legs moving laterally out and this is ok, but it will put him out of alignment and he will have to catch up with his front end which is still turning. I’m having a hard time describing this but you will feel it. He will sort of spin out and have to walk forward to get back on the circle. It’s ok. He will figure out that the turn is coming and start to adjust. At this point, his front feet are moving toward the center of the circle, so it is almost like he takes a little step in to get back on the edge of the circle.
To be honest, trying to think about the footfalls is making my head spin and I’m not sure it will help you. I guess what I would say is just that if you get too much lateral movement, either in front or behind, then, yes, the horse will take steps forward to get back on the path of the circle. Remember the ultimate point of lateral work is not to teach the horse to move sideways. It is to teach the horse to step under and engage and send the energy forward with a rounded back and softened topline.
If you slow down and turn more, he should come up and around you by stepping under more with his inside hind. Yes, this is giving the hip, but no he is not going the other way, he is just stepping up under so he bend more. You can practice this and feel it by doing a little turn. I do WWYLM with Rosie on a circle but I also play with it on straight lines and with turns. So I might ask her to walk and move laterally away and then turn so that she has to catch herself, pick herself up and come back up around me. If I do too much lateral work with her, she gets so she is sort of drifting away from me and I will use a sharper turn to reconnect. I just use this as an example to show you that you can modify the exercise as you like.
I hope this helps,
Katie Bartlett
www.equineclickertraining.com
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Katie Bartlett Jan 21
(Note from A.K.: This is a "must read" post. Katie does a superb job describing the flexibility and function of the "Why would you leave me?" game.)
Hi Anna,
I am glad to hear you are having success with WWYLM and Skylark.
Yes, you do want him to hold his nose “in the box” for this exercise. You ask for a give, he gives and maintains the curve of his neck and body and you keep walking. At this point, he is moving laterally and yielding out of your space. If he straightens, you ask for him to give again. If he holds his bend while you walk, then you click and he can take a break and eat. So, at this beginning point, your goal is for him to maintain his position while you are walking the circle.
But the goal of WWYLM is not to just have you and Skylark endlessly walking around a circle in a fixed position. That is the starting point. I have to say that I have never gone more than about 10 steps without clicking for something. That doesn’t mean you couldn’t use this exercise to work on duration but I have just found it gives me so many other cool things, that I never get that far.
So, for example, as Skylark gets better at it, you will find that he comes into position more smoothly or with a lighter give, click that. You might notice that he is flexing at the poll with better alignment, click that. You might find he is lifting the base of his neck or has better reach in his shoulder, or feels like he is stepping under better, click that! The idea is that once you have the basic behavior, you can look for ways to improve the quality of the steps.
If you don’t feel confident that you can identify improvements in the quality of his work, then you could change the environment and see if he will stay with you when you release even when you work in a different location. If you can’t change the location, make it different. You could add distracting or scary objects around the edges and see if he will hold the bend and walk by a balloon or something blowing in the wind on the outside of the circle.
I use WWYLM with Rosie in two main ways. I use it to see how supple she is feeling and how light she is when I bring her up to the ring. And I use it to check her focus. She has issues with the far end of my ring so I practice WWYLM there and I know she is ready to ride when she will stay with me around a circle in that end of the ring. That doesn’t mean a whole circle for one click, I’m not going for that. I just ask her to stay with me past something that is clearly bothering her and then click for that. Then we do the “easy” side of the circle and she gets clicked for that too. Sometimes I break it up in different ways or add an extra turn to see if she is really paying attention.
What might help you is to just play around with some variations and see what happens. If you are concerned about Skylark’s leg then you will want to make sure that you don’t ask for too many steps before you click, that you change directions frequently and you can also mix this up with other exercises. I sometimes do a few steps of WWYLM alternating with head lowering to make sure that Rosie stays relaxed, soft and adjustable in her neck.
Well, I hope this gets you one step further J
Good luck,
Katie Bartlett
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"The Why Would You Leave Me?" Lesson
Katie Bartlett wrote this wonderful post about the "Why would you leave me?" describing some of its many benefits.
It sounds like you are doing great with WWYLM and yes, you can certainly click him for being balanced between your legs. I rode this exercise when it was just asking for baby gives, and somehow I always ended up on a circle. I think what happens is that as you keep asking for baby gives of the jaw, you start to get some hip and the horse turns.
One thing I wanted to point out for anyone working on the single rein exercises is that there are many things you can get out of each exercise. WWYLM is not just about getting the horse to soften and give. It is also about
teaching the rider to recognize when the horse is giving body parts and which one he is giving
teaching the rider to recognize that there are different quality gives
teaching the rider to find the point of contact and when to release
teaching the horse about the release, that he can find it
allowing the rider to learn about her horse and herself (is he stiffer on the jaw to the left, does he pop his outside shoulder, do I lean left when I ask on the left rein)
Once you have spent some time thinking about those things as you ride WWYLM, then you can have even more fun. I like to think of ways that I can use the single rein exercises to ride patterns. At one of the Groton clinics, we rode 3 flip 3 but with obstacles. Alex would give the rider a job such as “go between the cone and the blue block.’ The rider had to steer within the rhythm of 3 flip 3 to get to the desired location. This is connecting the exercise to geography and we all had to learn how to control how much hip we got, how much we moved the horse’s laterally etc..
Alex teaches WWYLM on a circle, but there are lots of times when you might want a series of baby gives to set a horse up for something such as a transition or a turn. Once you have the basic idea of the exercise, the idea is to play with this stuff and see what comes out of it.
Good luck and have fun,
Katie Bartlett
www.equineclickertraining.com
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The Benefits of the "Why Would You Leave Me?" Exercise
written by Julie Varley
Feb. 22, 2006
Dolores wrote:
"The very best way to build her up is Alex's WWYLM and 3-flip-3 and loads of
lateral work. In order for her to use herself well you want to focus on the
movement within the joints."
Lisa asked about strengthening her horse's hindquarters. I just wanted to emphasize what Dolores said by adding in that I have been doing a lot of the WWYLM game with our new horse Jessica. The difference in the muscling of her back and HQ is astounding. When I sent photos at Christmas to my friends Darcy and Andy (who used to own Jessica), they were amazed to see the difference. It's funny, because you don't feel like you're doing anything dramatic with these exercises and then one day you look at your horse and they look like a different horse!
Jessica is a really solid carriage horse, but Darcy and Andy told me she was anything but light and that my arms would get stronger from driving her. Well, after a few months of clicker training, mat work, give to the bit, WWYLM, and lateral work, when Andy came to help me drive her for the first time he could not believe that he was driving the same horse that he had driven for years. He said she was much lighter and easier to drive. Pretty cool!
I also like to use a lot of free shaping and liberty work and not a lot of other equipment like side reins or draw reins. I love the way that clicker training helps teach the horses to find their balance and stay in balance rather than using equipment to hold them there. I've found that if you start off teaching the horse to soften and give in hand, it is easier to transfer this balance to liberty work or a lunge line later in the process.
Julie V.
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And in response to the same post Katie Bartlett wrote another great post. The original question dealt with a horse who had bucked during a dressage lesson. The instructor wanted to drive the horse forward into a fixed hand, and the horse was not able to handle the demands of the work.
Katie Bartlett wrote"
Feb 22, 2006
Hi Lisa,
I second Dolores’ comments about using WWYLM and 3 flip 3 to develop your horse’s hind end. These are really great ways to teach your horse to balance and carry herself.
Dressage is supposed to be about teaching horses to develop self carriage which means they need to learn to balance with their weight back over their hind end, and they need to develop carrying power. Carrying power in the hind end does not involve the same muscles as pushing the hind end forward. Many dressage riders think they can just ride their horses forward to develop their hind ends. The horses do get stronger, but they are developing pushing power and not necessarily carrying power.
So..my question would be.. Is there a reason you are focusing specifically on “building her back end better?”
If your goal is to get her fit enough to take a lesson with your instructor, then that is one thing. If your goal is to develop her carrying power, then that might be something else. Without seeing your horse and your instructor, I can’t say. But I will say that this is one case where doing more of one type of work might not develop the muscles for the work you really want. My experience has been that most dressage trainers either don’t understand this, or don’t explain it well to their students. The assumption is that if you keep riding the horse forward into your hand, the horse will learn to recycle that energy and use his hind end differently. Maybe, maybe not. Why not just start out teaching the horse to use his hind end correctly? This means doing lots of correct slow work, with transitions and bend. You may need to trot forward to keep her energy up and allow her to stretch, but the slow careful work is what builds carrying muscles.
Ok, I guess that’s my soapbox. Willy is the one who taught me this. I have also learned a lot from riding my unicycle. When I ride and I am not in balance, my legs get tired while I am riding. When I am in balance, it is so easy it is amazing. I have to believe that when our horses are aligned correctly, it feels great to them and they might feel tired after you stop, but they don’t notice it while they are going.
And, yes you can build this with liberty work. You can develop liberty work out of WWYLM or free shape it. One way to free shape it on the lead or lunge is to allow her to go out on a slack line. Then pick up the line and ask her to spiral in a bit (you are after her hip). At some point, she will soften and bend and LIFT, click that.
Finally, I don’t think you have to choose between working with your instructor or doing this work. Sometimes we have to put one thing aside for a bit to work on something else. It might be that you need to follow her route for a bit while you play with the other work until you can see your way ahead in that direction. Slushie will tell you if she is ok with it. The bucking was a wake up sign to you. Now you have to find out how adjustable your instructor is about Slushie’s needs. I made the mistake many times of not trusting what my horse was telling me and now I am much braver about following my own convictions.
Good luck,
Katie Bartlett
www.equineclickertraining.com
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Why would you leave me and Journal entries
Yvonne lehey wrote:
Feb. 14, 2006
Hi everybody,
Phew, I've finally finished reading the Riding Book and am bubbling
with eagerness to work with it! I'm determined to transform Madonna (3
y.o. American Saddlebred filly) and Amadeo (4 y.o. Peruvian
Paso-Andalusian cross) into clicker superstars under saddle! ;-)
Here is my today's diary entry about it (fourth session):
15.2.2006
Madonna: eager to be picked and be worked with! Briefly did walking with head down, which went well. Then wanted to try Why Would You Leave Me (WWYLM), put a round rein with clips on each side of her halter and started walking her around a circle of cones to the left. She started in a surprisingly soft manner, no pushiness. Picked up inside rein and got bracing, then a tentative little give. CT! Next was already better.
Did about 30, and got them quite consistently. Switched sides. To the right was more difficult, and she started grabbing at the rein, but was back focussing again pretty quickly. When I got the 3 gives, switched back to left side. And suddenly she offered a beautiful lifting of withers and tucked in her chin. Jackpot and end of session. On the way back to paddock, asked her to stand and HL while Amigo was rushing around in his paddock, which she did. She also offered to lower her head while walking back. About 25 minutes.
Amadeo: he is very happy now to come towards me (wasn't always the
case) and even let me halter him while I was standing right in front
of him. Arched his neck and looked eager to work. Asked for HL and he
obviously has "processed" it overnight and at third try, dropped his
head all the way down.
Did a few more and then started building in a little bit of duration (a few secs). He is feather-light, well most of the time. Still can get distracted a bit, but comes back to me pretty quickly. Then, for WWYLM, clipped the reins on the halter (right and
left side ring) and started walking around the cone circle to the left. He was pretty hesistant about it, and I had to ask with my fingertips at his ribs, combined with "walk on".
After a circle or two, he came a bit more forward, so his nose was slightly in front of me. First picking up of inside rein and he immediately tipped his nose. He was very fast on giving with his jaw and I needed close to zero contact. Just had to slide my hand along the rein a few inches, and he responded. Then to the right. Phew, that didn't work, he was completely confused and stopped very frequently and tried to drag behind me.
So we just walked around the circle until he was able to stay at my side. Then started with picking up the inside rein. Got giving of the jaw after a little while. Switched back to left side, and suddenly noticed that he had his nose "in the box" in front of me and was wrapped around me in a beautiful shoulder-in on a loose rein!!!
So unclipped the rein and did it at liberty! What a feeling! :-)))) About 40 minutes.
Myself: practising 4 points of feet and Tai'Chi Walk. Amazing how much more balande I have already acquired!
Kind regards from Oz
Yvonne
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Jane wrote a charming wwylm clicker story
Jan. 27, 2006
Hi All,
I am thoroughly enjoying being a part of this group.
I had to laugh the other day as I do the WWYLM with 8 small cones for my circle. As I was clearing the arena Genie was following me around. I had picked up the 3rd cone when she walked to the 4th and picked it up for me. We then walked the rest of the circle with her picking up the rest of the cones for me. I used the cones about 4 years ago to introduce her to the clicker and have not used them since in this way.
If only the children were as willing to clear up when they have
finished playing.
Jane
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Ilse deWit wrote a great post on the value of reviewing foundation skills.:
Sunday Januari 29 2006
I went back to the WWYLMG on the circle with the comes set out.
Worked with both my young loves Sindra and Gandi. ½ hour session each.
I hadn't done WWYLMG around the cones in a circle for a long time.
What I noticed immediately was that both horses constantly tried to
walk over me. I guess when I just do this in the arena without cones
I keep walking out of their space because I never noticed it before
like I did today. So that was the first great thing about going back.
Ok, nose in box AND keep those shoulders out of the way.
Gandi took a little longer than Sindra to get it and here I found one
of my triggers. I got upset because he kept pushing me inside the
circle (he always seems to want body contact with me). I observed
myself and actually watched myself having a bit of a struggle not to
let myself get into a fight with Gandi. I won the fight with myself
by taking deep breaths and by thinking about this list. I was
imagining that all of you were watching! I decided I'd forget the box
for a bit and just work on `shoulders out of my space'.
I also noticed that `nose in box' is actually quite low for the
horses and I was wondering about that. To have their heads (neck and
head lifted) where I would like them to be I felt I needed a box in
front of my face (Ok, I'm short and no that is not a safe place to
have a box). I was wondering about that as I do struggle with that
(still) in the three flip three under saddle where I feel my horses'
necks are too low. On the other hand maybe I am jumping the gun. I
was only doing WWYLMG today.
Gandi (who is the sweetest horse in the world, I don't care what you
guys say about your horses :-) had his ears back more than I liked. I
started asking for nose in box C/T and then I would wait for ears
forward C/T. Didn't notice much of an improvement we only had a ½
hour session in total (with each horse).
Summary for today:
1. Space issues with both horses. It is the horses'
responsibility to keep their shoulders out of my space. Much better
by the end of each session. I have to be more consistent.
2. Don't get upset, rethink your training steps, breathe
3. `Box' low? Other people's thoughts?
4. Gandi's ears back. Whenever I'm around him I will click for
ears forward. Not necessarily during more difficult work.
Cheers, Ilse
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